by allowing them). I want us non-Calvinists to figure out how to get along with our Calvinist brothers and sisters. In time, becoming a stronger branch. . Especially the statements above. And honestly, whether they admit it or not, it appears to me most of the good Calvinist I know operate that way anyway. Wow-at least you got the Christian part. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. I became a Christian at the age of 17, having been raised in Salem, Massachusetts, in what was essentially a non Christian home. The first document is in the form of a memo and is entitled, "Reformed Red Flags.". c) I want to move conversations about abuse beyond the Calvinism discussion because I think its a massive red herring. I would say its better to address individual issues anyway rather than decided if you can accept the tag. Regarding the 3rd view- well, I dont know if Ive stated this clearly before, but Ill give it a go just to be clear. Someone should alert Crossway immediately. But for the most part, until I started studying apologetics, I didnt really care about the supposed differences and still dont except to understand but not as a means of division. In other words, the Calvinists want you to agree that YOU have a FINITE mind and could be wrong. We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless! . I myself am a man, and know all too well, the sins and short-comings of mankind. John Calvin, French Jean Calvin or Jean Cauvin, (born July 10, 1509, Noyon, Picardy, Francedied May 27, 1564, Geneva, Switzerland), theologian and ecclesiastical statesman. @ Katie: Their scholarship seems smug and oddly ineffectual (quoted by one mother) and yes, it later became apparent that The Way was actually doctrinally aberrant and yet through this article you were drawn to Jesus, so maybe this suggests God sometimes uses unlikely means to create new believers? It was so strong that I knew I had to write what was going on inside of me in connection with my childhood abuse. FWIW, Ive run across many Calvinists (not teachers) who misunderstand Total Depravity. Yes, I believe that what were on earth mainly to do is bring glory to God New Calvinism is not a new branch of theology or a denomination. You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer. They are letting someone else handle driving. you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. I would more readily believe it of idiots like Mahaney, but, again, no one is infallible. Of late it has been a struggle not yo become angry at some YRR who belittle my longtime walk with the Lord because I am not a Calvinist. God ordains everything and man has a degree of free will how can these both be true? And when I talk of Calvinism, Im not talking about the way he viewed the authority of the church. Editors Note: The list is not meant to be exhaustive and will be updated periodically. You are free to jump back in and even things out, Jeff . And further, since Calvinism declares that God elects never based on any acts or will of man, of what use is it even to distinguish between good and evil, even if man could know them? And many if not most Protestant mainline denominations accept the idea of penal substitionary atonement, though I am aware not everyone accepts this belief. I Am a Christian - The first reason I'm not a Calvinist is that John Calvin was a man. Until about 6 years ago, I never, once, had any conflict with those who are Reformed. Another thank you, this time for writing tenet instead of tenant. Anyway, if this means that God made you say the words, and made you think the thoughts that led to them, this is not what Calvin believed, though I think Hyper-Calvinists believe this. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. YOU are never in a position to disagree or agree with their orthodoxy. (It had seemed strange to pay for a gift. I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others.. A very messy prospect, to say the least, and it hadnt worked in centuries past. He isnt at cross-purposes with Himself, so the question is silly. I kept a notebook, carefully writing all of the arguments in favor of Calvinism. There is a prominent member in our church who is also in our study group. Ah yes, those were the days A friend of mine came to the Lord while living in the hills above Santa Barbara in a teepee and smoking a lot of pot He and his wife were some of the most sane, grounded people I knew in the 80s. Is some parts of the word more important than other parts? We can all agree that automaton doctrine is evil. At least in Christianity, we have a God who did not allow us to suffer alone, but participated in experiencing the effects of evil. He is the primary cause of everything that comes to pass, the power supply for all force; secondary causes are always dependent for their power on the primary source of power.. @ Hester: Which is also one of the reasons I mentioned (a bit upthread) that Lutheran does not equal having to believe in every daggoned thing that Luther wrote. Im concerned with the preoccupation of defending Calvin when someone is hurting. His Kingdom and Church were to be completely separate from civil governance. There are a lot of avenues going on here. I think this is a bigger issue than Calvinism- its one fundamental to Christianity. These are things that we can work on together, no matter our view on election. Often, along with inviting non-Calvinists to just "read the Bible," Calvinists like to type out longs lists of Bible quotes which the Calvinists thinks proves and defends the Calvinistic system of theology. As far as truth is concerned, I believe that it reflects what the Bible says is the result of Adams sin. etc. Since so many Calvinists believe everything in this life is decreed, it would mean that God decreed you to write/create this blog from before the foundations of the world, so how can they object to you doing so? I ask that you likewise dont look down on me and others who hold this view of God. For some time now, my blog posts have pursued an inquiry of how non-Calvinists and Calvinists among Southern Baptists have come to be involved in a public conversation on their respective positions. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian) and the church councils, which means we all accept the most important teachings on Christs Person, His Deity and resurrection, and the teachings on the Trinity. Quotes about calvinism *Thank you* for this post, as well as for your use of the term non-Calvinist. I guess a lot of folks dont really know that its possible to be non-Calvinist but emphatically not Arminian. How many blogs do you know that feature writers or pastorswho have significant differences in soteriology from the blog owners? The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. Do you know how many people want to prove to me that they are correct? That said, I am in the Non-Calvinist-non-Arminian camp (currently in a Mennonite church, but not an ethnic Mennonite), so I label myself Anabaptist to describe my neither-or in terms of Arminian/Calvinist. I find that to be an amazing God thing. As I wrote above, He uses His will and our wills to accomplish His ends. Weve all been taught by people with various frameworks- that isnt bad. No one likes to see (what they think is) a good doctrine maligned, especially if it leaves the real culprit at large. Im sure God knew about it going in, and I know He/She wept even though at the time I felt abandoned by all the universe. Pushing Calvin on a hurting individual is like pushing steak on an infant. @dee, @ Darcyjo:I wish I could hear you preach. We might refer instead to TULIP as a doctrinal stance. However, Jesus entered our dimension and exists now outside of our dimension. @ JeffB: Open Discussion Page, 1 Corinthians 2:6-3:4Psalm 28:1-9Proverbs 20:24-25. CALVIN! So in other contexts your Calvinism/steak analogy is right as far as I know. 1) That article. Oy. Prayers are sustaining me right now. So, in that manner, I have some suggestion on how to view Calvinists as a non-Calvinist. When I, a Calvinist (as much as would prefer not to wear the title), hear someone say Calvinism is evil, yes I want to defend it. I could also pile up a lot of influential non-theologians here (C. S. Lewis, Billy Graham, Bill Bright), but I'm assuming your question was probing for a theological communicator of Packer's stature. @ JeffB: I even like some mean Calvinists. I pretty much agree with everything JeffB says here. John DeBrine and Youthtime wad usually held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. John Calvin (1509-1564) Michael Servetus (1511-1553) John Knox (c. 1513-1572) Teresa of Avila (1515-1582) Theodore Beza (1519-1605) Peter Baro (1534-1599) Caspar Coolhaes (1536-1615) Herman Witsius (1636-1708) Charles Borromeo (1538-1584) John of the Cross (1542-1591) Johannes Piscator (1546-1625) Richard Hooker (1554-1600) Paige Patterson 18. They have come into the world for such a time as this to rescue us Biblical goobers. That is a love that does not send babies or the mentally unable to hell, nor is it a love that creates people predestined to hell, but rather gives them a choice and only when repeatedly rejected, judges people for their rejection of him. Those who fell outside the box and had to be pushed away The Calvinistas have just put a new spin on how to usurp Gods authority (the Holy Spirit) over the individual believer. But its brought up a lot, so what am I supposed to do? I believe Sproul when he says that he knows of no Calvinist who, without any difficulty, welcomed what the Bible said about election, etc. That is what Jesus spoke against over and over in his short life.. The theology is weak. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. Good post Dee (If Im allowed to comment on this one!). Something like that. Well see how well I execute on that. Canada ON - Waterloo. whats so complicated about that? And thus, we are left with the only real proof that anyone has been given the truth: by agreeing with THEM. If, however, a viewpoint *in itself*, genuinely hurts someone, it is wrong. Almost all theists (Calvinists, Arminian, other) agree that God could have- so why didnt he? Like who can find Gods plan in the most horrible tragedy? Yes, some would slip away. Pastor daddy Mike Baker is furious and says he's been mistreated-"slander," etc. And, lets face it, which side was harsher on your blog? He is NOT against us, but thank God, He is for us!! Man is unable to save himself and, therefore, God must initiate salvation. Hes describing man, not God. If a megachurch pastor somewhere announced that as a Calvinist he was now going to start killing and eating babies, I would not hold this against small-c calvinists in general. This being the case, there is no rations basis for saying that YOU as a person can agree to the first and disagree on the second. People like RC Sproul understand that he can woo you all day long with heady notions of secondary causes because he understands that it will appeal to your false, but emotionally necessary urge for feeling loved and your sense of justice, without actually conceding his utterly deterministic assumptions. But when I look at the attitude of evangelism presented in scripture, it seems a lot closer to how an Arminian would frame it: a call of hope to those who would repent and turn to God. However, when a woman has been abused for years by the men in her life, its going to be natural that she lashes out at men and not feel safe around them. Hi guys, great posts, esp (from a personal point of view) from Jeff S, TW, Nick Bulbeck and others its been such a long thread I cant remember them all . I never minded using it in the past because it was just a shorthand for my views on what it means to be saved by grace; I wasnt really arguing with anyone, and I figured as shorthand, it was alright. . How is that? Tell othersthat such thinking hurts you but do not expect them to understand. @ Argo: @ Jeff S: No offense, Jeff, but a bit upthread you mentioned the concept of God choosing what kinds of evil he allows I find that deeply troubling. @ Julie Anne: b) I want to distance myself and the Calvinists I know from the abusive people who mis-represent the theology. The wonderful commentaries writ-ten by Adam Clarke, Charles Ellicott, and Daniel Whedon, for example, have not been published for years. I will pray for him a lot in the coming days! Ive not asked anyone to agree with me. Probably about 0.27 Pinkie Pies worth. If Calvinism sounds so much like Arminianism, why is there such a problem? Some Calvinists who want to make a distinction between hyper calvinism and proper Calvinism will gravitate to these equivocations in an effort to convince youand I suspect themselvesthat God in their construct is not some despotic puppet master who controls all things including abuse, rape, etc (e.g. Whatever power is exhibited in this world is not due to an independent machine with its own source of power and energy. They are 1) the extent of man's depravity, 2) whether election is conditional, 3) the extent of Christ's atonement, 4) the nature of God's grace and 5) whether Christians will/must persevere in the faith. I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others. There are days I really have to remind myself that God still very much loves people who have little love or respect for me or other Arminian Christians. . Why can we not focus on God and Jesus and what He did for us? I gotta second numos motion. Thousands of contemporary Calvinists cut their theological teeth on the teachings of Sproul and MacArthur and their respective ministries, Ligonier and Grace to You . I still have those moments, though they are less prolonged than they used to be. I know you know how to do that because Ive seen you do it at ACFJ. I met my husband when he wandered over to Park Street after he attended a service at Tremont Temple. The promises are over the top. 2) Everything that happens is scripted by God and is good for us. I didnt say childish. Thank you for letting me know what you think Jesus meant. You do not have to stay in a church that does not respect your point of view. A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. Recently, Julie Anne Smith, of the Spiritual Sounding Board, hada bit of a crisis in dealing with Calvinism. We didn't care if wewere charismatic, Baptist or coffee house hippies. I am a non-Calvinist (not quite an Arminian either) who lives and moves and has my being amongst Calvinists, the overwhelmingly dominant brand in my neck of the woods. I much prefer interacting with the Holy Spirit and reading Scripture. I never met Calvin myself, and as my History of Science supervisor at uni said nobody has ever devised a means to psychoanalyse the dead, so I can only guess at what went on in Calvins head. This sort of stuff is bad and will cause an increase in problems within the church universal. Again, if it were a matter of someone, as I put it earlier, beating someone over the head with their beliefs, that would be different. Grew up in Arlington.Christian (immigrant) family. I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. I worked in a womens shelter and was surprised at the number of pastors wives (well-known ones, too) who were regulars in the shelter. Youre more than welcome at my table, Jeff. I hear the person, Calvin, discussed more than Jesus. I hear the word gospel placed in front of all primary and secondary issues. Dee, thank you for sharing that testimony, and article. I liked that. This is a big issue for me, because theres a difference in believing in PSA and believing it is central to the Gospel or that believing a different atonement theology is a different Gospel. But whatever I believe about the sovereignty of God, it is MORE important to me to believe that God does not author evil and he does not desire for those he loves to suffer. Agree that you cant really know, truth, and as such you can have NO basis for denying their doctrine. You might argue that with only a little bacteria, you might only get sick, but not die. But you are right. I saw this is a problem, and I do think Deb and Dee have addressed it. That means doing it even when the other person does not reciprocate. I have certainly never heard anything about either topic in Lutheran circles, though I *have* heard much about Gods love, mercy, forgiveness and grace. I would disagree that anyone on TWWand I have been reading here a long timehas misrepresented Calvinism. Its sobering that these are the very things that will be withheld from me in many church settings because doing is reflexively conflated with striving and I need to learn to rest in Daddy/Mummy Gods unconditional love. . This has something that has really been important when writing, commenting, and moderating on ACFJ. There is some truth in this, but to bring thought control into it turns it into legalism. Green 27. These would include pedophilia, domestic violence, poverty, natural disasters, racial strife, etc. Demeaning can also occur by passive-aggression, which is the preferred method of the more academic among us. I grew out of it, something I hope the YRR does. The greatness of God must be understood in a different way because this construct caused harm so deep that it tore into the core of me and made me wish for eternal death. ). Of course, they mean the local church that thinks like them. John Piper (46:41) "This is the one you're all waiting for," Dever quips. Calvinism may be cool right now, but it doesnt reflect the God I have known and loved for over 40 years. The promises are over the top. For example, I will admit that I do not see how a good, all powerful God can exist while evil also exists. Rank No. But those of us who are labeled as misconstrue-ers of Calvinism are simply pointing out the logical flaws in their arguments. If you read it,you will most likely have a heart attack. I will never forget hearing so many Christians actually try to reason that we have to accept, even rejoice, that this must have been Gods plan for these precious young people. Glad to have someone who gets my background! LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! So, does God elect people who are only a little totally depraved as opposed to those who are totally totally depraved? Instead we have to accept that we don't understand their paradigm and choose to believe that they love God and believe that they are faithfully serving Him. Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. Calvinism is merely the attempt by one man to interpret the Bible; there are scores of others, men and women, who have attempted the same. Some of his hearers might have been scared as, uh, heck. We didn't worry so much about exacting doctrine. Look for them. And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, Which commandment is the most important of all? Jesus answered, The most important is, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. So MY goals when I talk about Calvinism here on the forum are to a) clear up misconceptions that would cause people to unnecessarily reject the theology so that they can know for real what it is they are rejecting. It is the place for me, but maybe not for you. On a site that deals with domestic abuse, it can very easily for discussion to descend into man hating. These leaders are not MY leader, and they are not the leaders of the men and women at my church. It feels good to be in a healthy spiritual state again. I grew up with a no talk policy and then experienced the same restrictions in church later on when I experienced abuse. They do not understand that there are alternative answers by good non-Calvinist theologians as well. I think the scripture uses the language of both perspectives, so it is not a view without merit. We are also workers. Been there, done that, have the scars (healing, but still) to prove it! My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. Let me backtrack. 1550-1616), who was not. (I mean, Star Trek?). It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. I view myself as rescued by God and dependent on his grace. 2) Dee, all this proves is you are a weirdness magnet.